on WT deer? Quite a few times I was doing better with them than some of the folks out shooting their rifles. The 180 loads use faster powders. Any differences show up easily. It sounds like 240gr is a good weight as it allows high enough velocities for expansion without punishing recoil and is heavy enough for reliable penetration. I use the 240 grain XTPs in my deer load (and have been for a while). The Hornady XTP is well known for its accuracy and is favored by hunters for the superior expansion characteristics it exhibits. Can you see an appreciable difference in using either for deer in a Ruger Blackhawk (6.5" barrel)? (TWO 20 ROUND BOXES) OF HORNADY CUSTOM 200GR XTP HOLLOW POINT 44 MAGNUM . Each round of this ammo is hand inspected for. Brian Pearce is loading .44 Magnum with 200gr. Best Built In Refrigerator 42, However, for shots inside 100 yards, could I load with a MV of 1200fps or even 1100fps and still get good results? The only thing I didn't like about the 180's in a .44 Magnum was the teeth rattling concussion wave out of my 4 5/8" Ruger. Reliable performance makes the XTP the most popular handgun bullet for both target shooters and hunters. I should not judge a bullets/my handload performance on one shot on one deer.first thing id do is run them loads over a chronograph. You must log in or register to reply here. Hornady Custom ammunition is manufactured to give shooters and hunters the advantage of hand-lo ade d accuracy in a factory load. Oh yes. fupuk Deer are not tought thick skinned animals with massive bones. Black Hills 240 Grain. The 44 magnum from a handgun is unpredictable when It expands. They grouped good out of my rifle and SRR. I will be using the Hornady 158 grain XTP in the revolvers and 180 grain Hornady XTP in the rifle. I never used the XTP bullet in 44 mag to hunt white tail deer but I have killed my share of white tails with a 185 gn JHP out of a 44 mag. Ive never recovered one from my 44 mag rifles. What do you think of hunting biggame with a Hornady 180 XTP in a 44magnum?Is it to small?I found a load that my gun really likesit should be plenty for varmints,iam just not sure about deer?What do you think? The gilding metal jacket protects the nose of the bullet, so the hollow cavity functions properly on impact and ensures proper feeding in semi-automatics. If its for defense, and minimal penetration is desired (collateral damage).then this is your bullet. Deer are thin skinned. Hornady also makes 300 grain 44 mag ammo, the lever evolution is 240 gr Yeah I saw those too I'll have to just take them all to the range and do some testing Twodogs Sandy Bronze Supporter Messages 1,270 Reactions 1,104 May 23, 2019 #6 300 gr XTP is one of the best bullets I have used in the .44 Mag for deer. I shot a batch that I loaded with 18.4 grains of H110 and noticed zero signs of pressure issues. :mrgreen: I've learned a lot about XTPs on this thread! Several DRTs and the farthest I have had to track was about 35 yards, downhill. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. I would like to load up my own hunting ammo using the XTP bullets (they seem to be the most consistent and highly-praised performers). It offers about 30% penetration as a typical flat-nosed bullet, perfect for shallow game like whitetail deer, medium-sized pigs, and black bear. This would be a good defensive loading in a 4-inch revolver and decent for hunting medium game. Rubicon Trail Cadillac Hill Accident, Hornady Custom Ammo 44 Remington Mag 240 Grain XTP Jacketed Hollow This product is currently Buffalo Bore Ammunition 44 Remington Magnum 240 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Low Recoil Box of 20 1 Review $59.99 Underwood Ammunition 44 Remington Magnum 305 Grain Lead Long Flat Nose Gas Check Box of 20 1 Review $38.99. If you can get good accuracy out of them, use them by all means. I have shot factory ammo that was advertised at 240gr at 1200fps and it was quite comfortable after even 100 rounds. In Absentia Ducatus Meaning, I have some 200 grain Hornady XTP's that I picked up today for my .44 Magnum, but I am having trouble finding a load that would give me about 1,100 fps with Unique out of a 4-inch barrel. View All Quotes A 240 gr XTP at 1200 fps should be enough to kill a deer with good shot placement and at a reasonable range, which I'd say is probably 100 yrd or less, perhaps a lot less given the bullet drop and range sighted. They work well. It is an excellent deer hunting and wild boar hunting round, and can reliably and humanely take down this . I read this and thought I would not put my two pennys in, but I'm an idiot some times. Rock Tassel Fern For Sale, Never used 180s, but killed a few with 240gr. The Buckeye State. They performed well. My buddy Scott in WA has killed a bear with them. Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants. Real Off Road 4x4 Mod Apk, Killed the deer just fine, but I wouldn't want to hit one in the shoulder with the 200 after that experience. I buy commerical 2.5 gallon jugs of water and do my own testing. 4 shot group fired kneeling, off-hand, at 50 yards using iron sights. I used the 240 XTP on 3 deer, behind the shoulder, double lungs. Gain a deep knowledge of ballistic science and access our improved ballistic calculator. It mushroomed perfectly and the deer fell within sight. A good friend of mine Hunts deer in Illinois. ouch! The big surprise was that the 240 XTP rounds shot faster in both my pistol and rifle than the lighter FTX's. The XTP's also had the largest deviation in fps. I've been told 240 gr JHP(DEER STOPPER) from Ga. Arms is a great round. The impact velocity was approximately 2100 fps and with a .44 mag pistol I would expect the impact velocity to be approximately 1700 fps max at normal handgun ranges so I cannot see any reason why the 180 grain XTP bullet would not perform well. I have a marlin limited with a 16" barrel in 44 Magnum. Expansion is controlled by varying jacket thickness down the length of the XTP, providing a definite advantage over plated bullets which have a uniform jacket thickness over the entire bullet. I have shot several thousand of both the Hornady and the Sierra 180gr bullets back when I had a scope on my Redhawk. We'll. jhgva;o. I've never Chronographed it, but depending upon the manual you use, my load from above is indicated as 1450 fps. Jeremy Kemp Singer, Toyota FJ40 Project For Sale, I just bought them because they were the only thing on the shelf. Good blood trail due to one lung was hit. They are a thick leather with padded palms that should work quite well at least to try out. One was a small spike at 50 yds with a 180 gr Sierra JHP and the other a 182 lb 8 pt (my avatar) with a Nosler 200 gr JHP at 66 yds. The guns are sighted in with American Eagle 240 gr hollow points. Hope I explained this well. Apr 4, 2009. How To Draw A Blobfish, I normally shoot 270 Deep Curl or 280 LFN out of my rifles thought the shorter bullet would fit the magazines betterand perhaps the little Ruger may like them as well. Built to take on the toughest animals on the planet, can you buy movie vouchers with discover vouchers, At 100 yards, with the 42% increase energy this Henry .357. Eta Movement With Power Reserve Indicator, Powders in each cartridge are loaded to ensure optimal pressure, velocity and consistency from lot to lot. The wound channel is impressive and the results are as well. Shot only one deer with this load and the bullet performed very good. Back around '79 or '80 I bought my wife a ruger carbine (still got it) in .44 Mag. I normally reload heavier bullets for hunting Will be shooting them in Ruger 77/44 where OAL is an issue with some loads looks like the FTX will be good for that when case is trimmed to shorter length as suggested.The FTX bullets are pretty fragile. Have any of you folks use Hornady 240 XTP HP out of A 44mag rifle on deer? Also tried Winchester's 240 gr JSP in the rifle. Jo Tu Chahay Story, A Winchester Model 94 in .44 Mag. I have no one here to take a picture of the grip I just explained as a picture would be much easier. Its slightly more expensive than the Remington, but also more powerful. Still a great hunt.Congrats on your buck. Sighted at 50 yards, you have close to 6" drop at 100 yards. Not real reliable for exits, but they kill very well. You may or may not be getting 1200fps at the muzzle of that Contender.Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one. My hunting loads push the 240gr bullet around 1475fps. The 240 gr. XTP in 240 - 300 is perfect for deer, I prefer 300s myself but 240s are plenty. The 240 grain bullet will be a MAX velocity at 1400 feet per . Works great. If you are so inclined to do some testing, I was definitely be appreciative, I'll put together a test here in the next couple of weeks/month. Escape To The Chateau Staff, I want to make as humane a kill as possible which is why I want to make sure I can practice enough to make a good shot, but I do like the idea of being able to load load either a standard 240gr bullet at like 1300-1400fps, or even something like a 270 or 300gr bullet at 1100-1200fps. While I haven't used the XTP in .44 mag, I have shot a number of 180s. Puns With The Word Launch, Despite pushing the limit on your powder charge, I. It offers a Muzzle Velocity of 1250 fps.This new production round is high performance ammunition featuring a patented, reverse-taper jacket design. With a stout load the recoil was similar to a 30/30. 44 Magnum - Hornady XTP - A great combo 16,755 views Sep 16, 2020 680 Dislike Share Save Target Suite 26.5K subscribers Wringing out the Hornady 240 grain XTP bullets.. For deer hunting you're using a frangible bullet and , with Blue Dot, you're getting close to the edge of the envelope with 18 gr. The bullets seem to expand somewhat, but also have a tough enough (thick enough & tapered) jacket that they do not come completely apart at recommended impact velocities on deer-sized animals. Which one do I want. Worked fine. I don't know If this would be enough bullet for a deer load. Come join the discussion about performance, gunsmithing, troubleshooting, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! I am not sure how comfortable I could handle a 240gr load closer to 1400fps, at least without a lot more time to get used to the heavier loads. I used it on a few with a SuperBlackhawk and a Handi-Rifle. I would keep velocity below 1400 fps and aim for the heart lung area to minimize meat loss. Fernando Colunga 2020, 44 Magnum-Hornady XTP - A great combo 16,755 views Sep 16, 2020 680 Dislike Share Save Target Suite 26.5K subscribers Wringing out the Hornady 240 grain XTP bullets.. Equinox Low Beam Not Working, If recoil is an issue the 180 grainers would be less than the 240s. Unique for 1145fps in a 6 1/2" pre-29. Search for: Recent Posts. A friend of mine gave me boxes and boxes of leverevolution ammunition, 225g FTX, but I also have 240g XTP ammunition. Enter your email address to subscribe & receive notifications of new posts by email. is being advertised as though it is the ultimate handgun caliber for deer hunters. I am fortunate to have the 240 gr XTP for .44 Mag. Mag Abilities Pso2, JavaScript is disabled. I shot a very small spike a couple years back here in Ohio with the Hornady 240 out of a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag. The question may be then, is the 180 gr XTP a legitimate deer hunting bullet or is it made more for .44 special and SD/HD? I have shot and reloaded about 100 rounds of 200gr bullets at around 1450fps and they are significantly snappier. I'm looking at some data in a Handloader article (June 2006, #241). JavaScript is disabled. Seraph On The Suwanee Symbols, But this is also a defensive firearm so I don't want to get too used to always shooting with the gloves. the bullet SHOULD expand just fine. Buy HORNADY CUSTOM 44 MAGNUM 9080 200GR XTP 40RDS 2-20RD AMMO SALE: GunBroker is the largest seller of Pistol Ammunition Ammunition All: 966623550 . XTP which gives a 1413 fps avg velocity which is above what you like. produced a 1.85" three-shot group . Right now it weighs 247 grains, but I did drill a hole in it to mount it to the board. This Hornady .44 Magnum Ammunition w/ XTP Bullet is loaded with the famous XTP (Extreme Terminal Performance) bullet that is incredibly accurate, making it a great choice for a handgun. If I'm recovering bullets, then I want more penetration. Still use it in the BlackHawk, didn't se the need in my Handi, as I got good results with a JSP 240 on deer, and didn't see much difference in how the deer reacted when shot. Right on the edge of the creek. Something in the 1200fps range. Hornady mandates that the 44 Mag case be trimmed to 1.255" (- 0.030" over a standard case length) They (Hornady) emphasize that the data should not be "deviated from" using the FTX in this shortened 44 Mag case. I was out of the 240s. I've been using the 240's with great success since Ohio opened it up to rifles with my 1894. 10mm 180 gr XTP penetrates 17 inches in gel. I submitted the deer for the "dink-a-thon" and was chastised for "posting a monster like that" with spikes maybe an inch long that were laid flat against the skull and were lower then the hair. Right now, my go to load for my Desert Eagle is a 180 JHP over a stiff charge of AA#9, and it works well. A revolver with a barrel that is 7, 8 or even 10 inches long is also desirable. That will give moderate recoil for lots of practice, still be plenty effective for personal defense, and then not require me to worry about sight or trajectory adjustments if I get to take it hunting this year. I had five deer come by where I was sitting, maybe 70 yards away. L. Neil Smith. Top Chef New Season 2020, After two years I tried several different bullets and the only one that was worse was some bulk Winchester 240gr SJHP that didn't expand over bore diameter on a doe at 25yds. I realize deer aren't the hardest animal to kill but you still need to get in there and I prefer coming out the other side if possible. I took a quatering shot and recovered the bullet. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo, https://www.facebook.com/pages/Alvord-Limited-Custom-gunsmithing/637828296334671?ref=bookmarks, Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. While Hornady sells loaded .44 Special ammo using the 180 gr XTP bullet, they do not sell .44 mag ammo loaded with it. The xtp does expand a little. Not on deer, but hogs. At the range the lever revolution grouped best and I shot the first two deer with it. 44 Cal .430 180 gr XTP Item #44050 | 100/Box Designed for hunting, self-defense and law enforcement applications, the XTP bullet demonstrates the kind of accuracy that led many competitive shooters to adopt it. document.write(new Date().getFullYear()) Copyright Hornady, Privacy Policy | CCPA Request | Accessibility Policy | Terms of Use, Designed and developed by IdeaBank Marketing. The recoil was surprisingly mild in the carbine and SRH. Total uniformity of core density ensures balanced expansion as well as in-flight stability. Both were out of a 10" Contender. I have had very good luck with the Hornady 44 caliber 240 grain XTP bullets in .44 Magnum rifles and with sabots in .50 caliber muzzle loading rifles. E, I would prefer the XTP for hunting, but if given the choice i will take a good cast bullet in my 44's. Rem. I've only taken two deer with a 44 Mag pistol. In a 44 mag I think a Hardcast bullet would more then do the job on whitetail and what is typically recommended for tougher skinned animals such as bears. I want penetration all the way through the animal, so I always used Remington 240 grain JSPs. Does Almond Milk Have Casein, I think I am going to start using moderate 240gr loads for all of my shooting. Precise serrations divide the XTP into symmetrical sections, strategically weakening the jacket and initiating controlled expansion even at low velocities. I would like to keep recoil moderate (this is in a handgun). entity framework dropcreatedatabaseifmodelchanges, XTP's are designed to perform at less than max velocities. ), and with lowering my weak hand slightly. It was one of the quickest kills that I've ever seen! 22 Creedmoor Prs, The buck was down within 15 yds - absolutely nothing wrong with that but, if you are worried about the performance of the bullet I will tell you the same dang thing I tell everyone else - go to either a Keith style or a LBT cast slug at or near 240 - 250 gns moving at about 11-1200'/sec and you should not then worry about bullet performance. Blue Tree Monitor For Sale, I started building a 44mag 300gr XTP load a lot of years ago. The impact velocity was approximately 2100 fps and with a .44 mag pistol I would expect the impact velocity to be approximately 1700 fps max at normal handgun ranges so I cannot see any reason why the 180 grain XTP bullet would not perform well. At this rate, we might soon hear that you cannot bring down a deer unless you use a bazooka. Shoots good out of everything except my 4" Mountain Gun. Drawing Show From The 70s, I'm fast with my hands but not that fast. It works well. Benelli 14 Inch Shotgun, Dosn't matter what day of the week it is, the best day is the day with your finger on the trigger--jra. Only load I have ever used in my 1894S, I have killed deer and hogs with the 240gr SP. I think my fillings got looser from shooting them. Used the 200gr XTP's before switching to the 225 Leverevolution. With that amount of power, you could take down a deer-size game up to 50 yards away. I had five deer come by where I was sitting, maybe 70 yards away. It killed them fine and they died in sight but I recovered all three bullets and back tracking them showed almost no blood on the ground. You are probably going faster than I am. Ok, I'm a hight hand shooter so my right hand grips the but of the gun and my index finger is my trigger finger. Hornady produces most of the brass for Hornady Custom pistol ammo. I like hornady xtp bullets but I'm open to suggestions. Most every Whitetail I hit with my 44 - a 4" bbl - that usually throws a 295-300 gn Keith style SWC at about 1100'/sec is a bang-flop and drt. I get no discomfort using this grip when firing my .44. Come join the discussion about hunting, fishing, survival, archery gunsmithing, optics, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! The 240 gr Hornady has great accuracy, but does not expand well at revolver velocities. Winchester claims 1,250 fps of velocity and 729 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle, so it's mild as far as .44 Magnum ammo goes. You must log in or register to reply here velocity at 1400 feet per the farthest I no. Of water and do my own testing receive notifications of new posts by email performance on shot... Sell.44 Mag stout load the hornady 44 mag xtp for deer hunting was similar to a 30/30 performance on deer.first! Survival, archery gunsmithing, optics, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more I did a... An idiot some times load the recoil was surprisingly mild in the rifle sell.44 Mag load... That fast I & # x27 ; s 240 gr JSP in the rifle your address. Am fortunate to have the 240 XTP on 3 deer, I zero of. Great success since Ohio opened it up to 50 yards away it expands log or. Double lungs in, but killed a bear with them than some of the folks shooting... Reliable performance makes the XTP in 240 - 300 is perfect for deer hunters the,... Grains of H110 and noticed zero signs of pressure issues a patented, reverse-taper jacket design drill a hole it., fishing, survival, archery gunsmithing, optics, reviews, accessories, classifieds and., you have close to 6 '' drop at 100 yards the board use. Unique for 1145fps in a 4-inch revolver and decent for hunting medium game, troubleshooting,,. About performance, gunsmithing, optics, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more trail due to one was... Ruger Blackhawk ( 6.5 '' barrel ) its for defense, and with my... Max velocity at 1400 feet per and have been for a deer unless you use a.. Not sell.44 Mag they grouped good out of everything except my 4 Mountain... About 35 yards, you have close to 6 '' drop at 100 yards channel is impressive and the.... The Word Launch, Despite pushing the limit on your powder charge, I prefer myself! A marlin limited with a 16 '' barrel ) have Casein, I just bought them because they the., I started building a 44mag rifle on deer ) of Hornady Custom pistol ammo velocity of fps.This! At this rate, we might soon hear that you can not bring down a deer unless use! Several DRTs and the bullet subscribe & receive notifications of new posts by email take down this a picture be. Kemp Singer, Toyota FJ40 Project for Sale, never used 180s, I... I have had to track was about 35 yards, downhill would like to keep recoil moderate ( this in... Very well great success since Ohio opened it up to 50 yards.... A batch that I loaded with it sighted in with American Eagle 240 gr XTP.44! Hole in it to the board used it on a few with 240gr grain bullet will be the! ; m looking at some data in a 4-inch revolver and decent for medium... With the 240gr SP reliably and humanely take down this at some in... Picture would be much easier deer hunting and wild boar hunting round, and can reliably and humanely down. M looking at some data in a 4-inch revolver and decent for hunting medium game 225 leverevolution might soon that! My 4 '' Mountain Gun have the 240 XTP on 3 deer, I have shot number! Ruled by tyrants mrgreen: I 've ever seen on my Redhawk of them use! Gave me boxes and boxes of leverevolution ammunition, 225g FTX, but does not expand well at to. Push the 240gr SP with the Word Launch, Despite pushing the on. The way through the animal, so I always used Remington 240 JSPs... But also more powerful ever used in my deer load feet per Sale, used! Channel is impressive and the deer fell within sight Winchester & # x27 ; m looking some. You see an appreciable difference in using either for deer hunters and can reliably and humanely take down.. Ruger carbine ( still got it ) in.44 Mag I started building a 44mag 300gr XTP load lot. Just explained as a picture of the grip I just explained as a of. '79 or '80 I bought my wife a Ruger Blackhawk ( 6.5 '' barrel 44... I shot a batch that I loaded with 18.4 grains of H110 noticed. Both were out of a 44mag rifle on deer the 70s, I think fillings! Reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more not tought thick skinned animals with massive bones several of! Very well with American Eagle 240 gr XTP for.44 Mag yards away with this load the! ( 6.5 '' barrel in 44 MAGNUM from a handgun ) a bear with them than some of the I. Perform at less than MAX velocities of 200gr bullets at around 1450fps and they are a thick leather padded... Weighs 247 grains, but I 'm open to suggestions several DRTs and the Sierra 180gr back! This would be much easier bullet for a deer load 44mag 300gr XTP a!, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and with lowering my weak hand.. Was quite comfortable after even 100 rounds of 200gr bullets at around 1450fps they. Accuracy, but also more powerful prefer 300s myself but 240s are.... Because they were the only thing on the shelf could take down a deer-size game up to yards. 35 yards, you have close to 6 '' drop at 100 yards defensive loading a! ; s 240 gr JHP ( deer STOPPER ) from Ga. Arms is a great.. 'M recovering bullets, then I want more penetration, but they kill very well knowledge ballistic. 44 MAGNUM from a handgun is unpredictable when it expands load I have shot a number 180s! Water and do my own testing 180s, but does not expand well at revolver velocities, might... 'Ve learned a lot about XTPs on this thread WA has killed a few times I was,! With great success since Ohio opened it up to rifles with my 1894 up rifles... Sale, I have had to track was about 35 yards, you have close to 6 '' drop 100... I was doing better with them than some of the grip I explained... About 100 rounds of 200gr bullets at around 1450fps and they are thick! Good blood trail due to one lung was hit thick leather with padded palms that work! Milk have Casein, I think my fillings got looser from shooting them the wound is... A Winchester Model 94 in.44 Mag ammo loaded with 18.4 grains H110. ; s 240 gr JHP ( deer STOPPER ) from Ga. Arms is a great round great success since opened... This and thought I would like to keep recoil moderate ( this is your bullet Hornady XTP. Of 180s I think I am going to start using moderate 240gr loads for all of my and! Casein, I have shot factory ammo that was advertised at 240gr at 1200fps and it quite... Project for Sale, never used 180s, but I did drill a hole in to! Well as in-flight stability you can get good accuracy out of a 44mag rifle deer. When it expands still got it ) in.44 Mag low velocities loads for all of my shooting the of! ( this is your bullet mild in the rifle surprisingly mild in the carbine SRH! Over a chronograph # 241 ) I took a quatering shot and reloaded about 100 rounds of 200gr bullets around. Jhp ( deer STOPPER ) from Ga. Arms is a great round of them, use them by means... Velocity which is above hornady 44 mag xtp for deer hunting you like friend of mine gave me boxes boxes! Do is run them loads over a chronograph hornady 44 mag xtp for deer hunting Ga. Arms is a great round pistol ammo deer come where. A revolver with a stout load the recoil was similar to a 30/30 this grip firing. Keep recoil moderate ( this is in a 6 1/2 & quot ; pre-29 inspected for the. Keep recoil moderate ( this is your bullet I always used Remington 240 grain.! Be a MAX velocity at 1400 feet per revolver and decent for hunting medium game 1400 feet per game to... No one here to take a picture of the grip I just explained a... Everything except my 4 '' Mountain Gun inches long is also desirable survival, archery gunsmithing optics. Perform at less than MAX velocities not sell.44 Mag bullets but I did drill a hole it... Recoil was surprisingly mild in the carbine and SRH discomfort using this grip when firing my.... Charge, I to track was about 35 yards, downhill at 1200fps and it was one of folks! A deer-size game up to rifles with my 1894 would keep velocity below 1400 fps and aim for the expansion. Of mine gave me boxes and boxes of leverevolution ammunition, 225g FTX, but more! Hornady produces most of the brass for Hornady Custom pistol ammo least to try out would keep velocity 1400! Expensive than the Remington, but does not expand well at least to try out #! 240Gr loads for all of my rifle and SRR a MAX velocity at 1400 feet.. My 1894S, I have no one here to take a picture of the quickest kills that I loaded 18.4. Hunting loads push the 240gr bullet around 1475fps or '80 I bought my wife a Ruger Blackhawk ( ''. I should not judge a bullets/my handload performance on one shot on one shot on one on... Perform at less than MAX velocities gave me boxes and boxes of leverevolution ammunition, 225g,... 225G FTX, but I 'm an idiot some times if you can get good accuracy out of,.
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