I decided to give try a try because I couldnt find any long term clomid studies and trt is a bio identical hormone and not a drug. These withdrawal symptoms include: 3. The ideas, procedures, and suggestions contained within this work are not intended as a substitute for consulting with a medical doctor. I had been seeing a Urologist regularly for another issue and during a blood test he checked my T level and it was around 110. Like any chemical dependency, your body will start to crave what it has become By tapering off TRT you are allowing for your natural testosterone synthesis to return and eventually reach its pretreatment levels before the effect of the therapy is completely gone. Testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) is a treatment option for men who have symptomatic low testosterone levels. This is most likely due to past abuse. He recommended androgel which 1.62, 3-4 pumps daily. Your age, whether you engage in physical exercise (e.g. Doing weights and eat lots of fat and get sun. It lasts for about 3 days to a week for me then back to my normal self. It felt awesome even though I had a lot of water retention and rampant libido and some aggro and moodiness. The last several months have been a nightmare. So took some magnesium citrate (200mg) around 4pm and viola, all is well. It is responsible for the. Lortab Withdrawal Symptoms + How Long Will They Last? Hated side effects and threw it out one night. Effects of testosterone replacement therapy withdrawal and re-treatment in hypogonadal elderly men upon obesity, voiding function and prostate safety parameters Effects of testosterone Having sufficient testosterone is also considered a good preventative measure against developing osteoporosis. Im super lean. Before TRT my LH was 4.5 now its 3.40. I had a few days of random weird sweats or tender point all over pains and achy flu feeling but it was manageable. Im going to keep it up but anyone taking Testosterone and not needing it medically using just to get bigger, please learn from me and dont do it or youll have to do it later in life just to be normal! If anything stopping it has improved my mood significantly, I was pretty moody and depressed just before I quit it but that could be because I hate my job at the moment. Otherwise, I may be inclined to go back to Androgel. Well in week 3 of being off testosterone I started to experience insane withdrawal symptoms such as dizziness, fatigue, depression, weakness in legs, burning mouth syndrome, slow heart rate, lower body temp, hot flashes, heart pressure, nausea and lack of appetite, etc. So far my mood has dipped, but hasnt been awful. Tell your oncologist about your TRT use. Will my bone density worsen resulting in osteoporosis? Had no energy, no drive, fatigue, depression and more. Dont get discouraged, keep pushing forward, eventually the withdrawal symptoms end and life returns to normal. Went back on Androgel and symptoms went away in a matter of hours. At times, rapid withdrawal of steroids can lead to a more severe syndrome of adrenal insufficiency. I started treatment in 2011 due to low T (147). Strong Simply discontinuing without gradually tapering down the amount of hormone you received may lead to more severe withdrawal effects. This is a hormone that has a major impact on our health and well-being. Over the last month I have cut my dosage down to 2/3rds of original dose, and thinking soon will drop it down to half of my original dose. First 3 days almost euphoric (almost, it wasnt like I was manic, I knew where it was all coming from) then settled into just really great, libido came back strong (never went away, but was much diminished), attitude was great, motivation back again. , but its not right for everyone. He stated he was on it for a year. Although symptoms from discontinuing testosterone tend to be similar, the length and severity will be based on the individual. My lean body was made even more hypermetabolic by the T. And it raised my platelets. My Dr put me on 250mg cipionate at age 29. These symptoms are typically a result of your body reverting back to homeostatic functioning without the exogenous testosterone boost that it had been It is clear most doctors have no clue what they are doing so the misinformation is confusing for patients. However, some men may experience symptoms for longer periods. Ill deal with the mental stuff. If you dont have prostate issues while coming off testosterone feel lucky. If you have any questions about how long testosterone withdrawals last, or if you are experiencing any symptoms similar to anabolic steroid withdrawal, be sure to speak with your doctor. When I went to the pharmacy and no script, called the doc and the nurse said she is taking me off for a month so she can then recheck my levels! He said it hardens arteries, and Im wondering if theres anything one can take to prevent this? Im in panic mode right now. Reducing stress can help improve hormone levels and alleviate symptoms. I am unable to achieve an erection and my testes have almost disappeared. Compared to most psychiatric drugs and illicit substances, withdrawing from testosterone is regarded as being relatively minor. I take Valium as necessary. If a transdermal film application is utilized, most people take between 2.5 mg and 5 mg. Some people will only notice symptoms for a week or two after theyve discontinued using testosterone boosters, while others may have longer lasting effects. That with high nutrition diet with some supplements and see where my numbers fall. strength training), and your diet can all influence how quickly you recover from withdrawals. Some guys do just fine in the lower TT range. Those who had to take higher quantities of testosterone may have more of a difficult time when it comes to stopping. Ive been on 200 mcg since then with great results. I started getting heavy withdrawals from sustanon 250. If so, how did you approach your doctor about quitting? In regard to your worries: Eat clean and still exercise. These are followed relatively quickly by the next stage in Testosterone withdrawal timeline by: Insomnia Seizures Hallucinations Confusion Tremors Anxiety Digestive Been off 3 weeks. Reduce stress: Stress can interfere with hormone production and exacerbate symptoms of andropause and erectile dysfunction. During the period required for spontaneous recovery, some of the endocrine dysfunction symptoms may progress. I truly appreciate your efforts and I will be waiting for your further post about testosterone therapy and hormones. Glad we found this blog. Hey Dax, its August now. I cant imagine withdrawal being worse than what Im dealing with now. Botox Treatment For Depression: Could Facial Injections Cure Low Moods? The following symptoms and signs may occur in individuals who are withdrawing from taking steroids: Weakness Fatigue Decreased appetite Weight loss Nausea Vomiting Diarrhea Abdominal pain Low blood pressure ( hypotension) Dizziness or fainting Low blood sugar ( hypoglycemia) Menstrual changes Attitude really determines the severity IMHO. We look forward to helping you reach your health goals. I dont know how long your withdrawals will last but it sounds like you dont have much choice either if this is from the androgen. Then started on oral troches 20mg a day stacked with HCG .5 ml 2 times a week and estrogen blocker, and doxycycline for acne. Symptoms of testosterone withdrawal can include fatigue, decreased libido, and depression. It took 12 months for 90% of men to restore their sperm count to recommended ranges and up to 24 months for 100% of the participants to achieve healthy values. I can still do the same bicep curls however, so I do not know what has happened there. The mechanisms by which TRT thickens the blood have not been scientifically well established. They are all incompetent. American Heart Association. This past October, PSA number more than doubled, and urology confirmed prostate cancer. Im 48 with dysthymia/ADD. Gustangent, my husband who is 70 and has been on TRT for many years gets dangerously high hemoglobin and hematocrit levels from this therapy. He said there could be mild side effects that will work out in time, but cancer feeds on height T?? After 2 weeks I had very bad anxiety for about a week as well as nausea and no appetite. Ive actually looked this up due to not knowing what was going on (present). I also feel tired most of the time. Worse, zero motivation and sex drive. Dropped some weight and started working out and gained some mass. Carbohydrate consumption is a key factor with weight gain in menopause. If you are experiencing any of the symptoms similar to anabolic steroid withdrawal, it is important to talk to your doctor. Currently, there is a lack of sufficient evidence from human studies to support them, and neither of these products is FDA-approved. I was given the proper meds to deal with the tumor and placed on Androgel 1% 5g packets daily. I cant stop testosterone because without it I cant function so I will keep doing it until I die I guess. My hemoglobin was up after about a year of being on it but all we did was do some blood draws to keep that in check. I dont feel great but I had no choice and it sounds like you dont either I do have days I feel really well though stay positive eat right and get plenty of exercise and rest. Another possible cause is sleep apnea, which I will be tested for if the CAT scan comes back clean. the last year) so was, not non-existent, but pretty close. Ive been tapering off for a about a month. I stopped cold turkey because I had a health scare at my job and attributed it to the the Test shots. Among adult men, testosterone levels are typically between 7x and 8x greater thanlevels among women. Its been close to 4 months on Clomid and several at 50mgs and I hear thats a high dose. So that brings me to the off ramping. How long have you been receiving testosterone injections or applying AndroGel? Better moods and outlook. Im sorry. PCT PROTOCOL: I understand the HPTA shutdown and associated side effects of TRT and other Anabolic/Androgenic agents can be unpleasant. I had to stop because of enlarged prostate six weeks ago I took HCG every 3 days tapering it down gradually until last week.It really helped but I dont know if it kept my system suppressed or not from testosterone production on its own. Randy do you have sleep apnea? It causes an endocrine dysfunction called secondary hypogonadism which manifests with hindered testicular function and atrophy. Learn how your comment data is processed. Anyone else have similar experience, having a blocker injection too? Symptoms of testosterone withdrawal can include fatigue, decreased libido, and depression. Now having terrible restless legs, anxiety and blurry vision. Only negative is I went down from 20 pushups to 16 & my tricep extensions went down from 30 to 21. Doc never did labs in the 6 months I was being injected to follow up on my levels. I myself do .30 twice a week Sunday and Thursday and it is working very good for me. So I was on Sustanon 250 only 6 weeks in last September-November. All felt great. You just have to put in the work. Only reason I started taking T-cyp was because my doc did blood work and said I was low. TRT not only increases your risk but speeds up progression. I only started working out in my forties and last year did my first cycle which was mainly test ENT. Shoulder pain gone, back pain lessened, knees still hurt sometimes, but my strength is up a ton and it feels good. Anyway after 8 months I want off after doing research that my test levels were amazing but Im being stepped down 50mg every 2 weeks. Most would agree that withdrawal from taking testosterone is relatively mild. Surgery upcoming and not feeling too happy about it. Amitriptyline (Elavil) Withdrawal Symptoms + How Long Do They Last? My risk has always been high as my paternal side of the family was hit hard. 1. After some research I got my test levels checked and they indeed came back low. Using androgel 1.62 for at least 5 years. This blog post will provide you with the basic information you need to know about testosterone withdrawals. I had my other doctor start me on Lamictal which is for bipolar disorder to keep my mood stabilized and it has kept me rock solid! Additionally I was very very grouchy and snappy, and prone to mood swings. I live in Boise, Idaho. I tried Clomid at different doses but felt horrible on it. Stop immediately. I actually lost a young girlfriend because of low T, or at least in part. I think I will see the clinic where I began my treatment to see where my levels are. So upset with this side affect I am trying to get off and its not going well. Over 20 years on TRT, the only negative side effect I ever got was high hematocrit (thick blood from too many platelets being formed). Testosterone cypionate max dose, testosterone cypionate withdrawal symptoms - Acquista steroidi anabolizzanti legali Testosterone cypionate max dose Choosing the right ester is half the strategy in treating low-t, frequency & dosage then tailored to suit individual needs. Copyright 2022 Denver Regenerative Medicine |, Testosterone withdrawals are a real and serious condition. Thats seems to have gone away. Mostly a side effect of injection as it causes you to go too high, then normal, then low over the course of your injection time. It is common to experience hypnogonadism). My cardiologist said it was probably sleep apnea. If youre trying to get rid of fat, consider liposuction. Had a watershed event happen (a negative one), got depressed, worked through it and during that time a guy gave me a pack of the testosterone gel and man within 30 minutes I felt like a new man. My last 200mg T-cyp was July 6th. About 8 months ago, my doctor suggested testosterone replacement because I've experienced some ED problems. Many individuals have undergone TRT and androgen replacement therapy for years with positive results. But eventually your body re-calculates things and gets back to where it wants to be. When I started I was 44, Im now 53. Even though it was generally well tolerated the sides were a bit too extreme. That was the magic combo but he could not get my DHEA numbers under control even with supps. FatigueWeaknessDecreased muscle massIncreased fatThinning hairLoss of sex driveDepressionHeadachesAnxietyInsomniaMore items So I thought about it, prayed about it, and decided to go back on, but this time not on injections (as they are what most of the negative sides are from) this time cream. Maybe take some zinc tabs. 100mg/g over two doses (one in morning, one at night). I just couldnt get used to shots, and freaked out about injecting drugs in my body essentially bought off the street. Naturally, withdrawal symptoms may differ for each patient, depending on how long they were on treatment and the dosage level of their testosterone medication. The Gleason score is 7.8 so I now have to have a prostate removal since Chemo wont work, nor seeds, and the radiation could have such collateral damage that if that fails, the operation for removal of the prostate would render me totally limp for life. Right now my weight has increased considerably. Prostate Complications The prostate is a muscular gland that surrounds your urethra. I feel foolish now and want to get off of it. It looks like my LH and FSH are recovering but my T was 100-ish a few months back and only 150 last week. Well DEXA scans show no change in all that time, except wasted years of sitting around due to lost motivation and moodiness, apathy. If that doesnt fix it, then Ill just go off again and accept this is old age. Suddenly, and almost overnight my PSA was at 9. Loss of appetite. Always wash your hands after. I am really worried and have been depressed most of my life as it is and have a job to do and a child to feed. I found this article very enlightening. For me, fatigue was the issue that put me on TRT, and Im not looking forward to that. I quit taking the injections (100 ml a week) 2 months ago, due to unwanted hair growth, but I feel terrible. The world health organization did a study and found that graveyard workers always test in lower range for test. Id like to be tapered off of it, but Im also on a blocker against estrogen which is due again in three weeks. Pantoprazole (Protonix) vs. Omeprazole (Prilosec), Lexapro (Escitalopram) vs. Prozac (Fluoxetine), Pregabalin (Lyrica) vs. Gabapentin (Neurontin). I figured Id try a low low dose for few weeks to help nudge the axis back in motion. My experience is LONG Took anabolics in my 20s. The withdrawal symptoms are usually short-lived and last 2-4 weeks until your body restores normal testicular function or adapts to your new T levels. Get regular exercise: Exercise can help increase testosterone levels, relieve stress, alleviate mood swings, prevent brain fog, and even prevent you from losing muscle mass. this is where my experience played a role in my understanding of what happens to the body during detox. My libido, my energy, my mood are all in a bad place, I added 10lbs quickly, and dont think I am in a good place. Initially I felt a little fitter but there were no erections and my testes were almost undetectable. Since my Hematocrit has been high for over 2 years, he had to go along with the idea that my erythropoietin levels were probably not due to a malignant tumor, as Id be symptomatic or dead by now. I started in 2009, and I did see some benefits, but nothing earth-shattering. Thats my plan. Some individuals have a physiology and genetics that allow them to quickly recover from testosterone withdrawal, while others be sensitive to discontinuation. Sorry, Im just really nervous as I am not sure how to begin the stopping process. The withdrawal symptoms Ive had have been miserable. Should I request it? But there is an existing theory that TRT stimulates erythropoietin and thus the high blood counts. HCG is a hormone that signals your body to produce your natural Test. Sexual desire is pretty low and Im checking the balls on a pretty regular basis for growth with mixed results. Safe Way to Come Off Testosterone Therapy. The entire nervous system will go through a period of readjustment when the dosing is dropped and following discontinuation. In this case, a doctor may recommend TRT (testosterone replacement therapy), which helps keep levels within the normal range. Read it again. My libido has come back, and then some! They can help you determine if you are indeed experiencing testosterone withdrawal and can provide treatment options. It can take up to 4 months to restore natural testosterone levels after being on anabolic steroids for a long time. There are a lot of questions on here and not many answers! be restarted safely or is it better to continue looking for other solutions for my 1. My last reading was 23 ng/ml and my Endo is saying I can come off the Androgel. You already have cancer. Despite all of the benefits that come from testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), there are cases when you might have to wean off testosterone injections. But never had any withdraw symptoms I could perceive. I didnt equate the stopping with not being able to breathe. How long before Ill be able to see size gains again? Total test was 417 when I started TRT which is obviously enough for me anyway. So I stopped cold turkey. Lower progesterone levels also affect your sexual performance and may lead to an overall lack of interest in sexual activity. Thanks for the reply Benji, After being off for several months now I have an appointment with a specialist. Testosterone is a hormone that is produced by the testicles in men and ovaries in women. Been on TRT for a number of years. We look forward to helping you reach your health goals. I really didnt like the atrophy of the testicles though, but all the other positives made it a fair trade off. It is important to keep in mind that many individual factors can influence testosterone levels. Ive been there and still on the recovery myself. Appetite and weight loss Nausea and vomiting Diarrhea Abdominal pain Acute withdrawal symptoms typically go away within one week after stopping prednisone and other corticosteroids; however, a doctor will likely taper the medication to prevent serious withdrawal or a protracted withdrawal syndrome. If my illness ever gets cured I will go back on TRT for sure but for now I look forward to just admiring the most beautiful artwork on this planet once again. I have heard test testosterone can make it worse. Ive been on TRT and take 1cc a week for the last 8 months. My PSAs were always around 4 to 4.5 but at my age, still not horrible. First I slept all the time with nightmares and had no interest in eating. I guess Im stuck on it for life. With low T I used to see women as works of art instead of sex objects. Hi all, Im 29 and I was on sustanon 6 weeks and had to stop because I started to feel restless and I went off cold turkey. I always noticed I felt better on them then off. Stay away from Sustanon and stay away from test. When you have been low for a long time, your body up-regulates testosterone receptors so it can maximize the low levels in your body, and when you add outside test, it feels like you have taken a lot, even if your dose is low. After a lot of thought (I hate being dependent on anything and I knew it would be for life) I took the plunge as I had a lot of doctor friends and one of them started a HRT clinic. That was over an 8+ year period. Will this improve after I stop using androgel and how long might it take? Another strategy to reduce the risk of side effects is tapering off the dose of injections as opposed to stopping TRT abruptly. My Dr tends to make me pay for very expensive blood work every two months and I feel taken advantage of. Besides, there are two main side effects you might experience after long-term high-dose TRT endocrine dysfunction and withdrawal. For the first 4 months, he prescribed Androgel. Some Doctors should just be giving meds for colds! For example, those who are receiving short-acting solution may receive only between 25 mg to 50 mg between 2 and 3 times per week. I was feeling just completely burned out. The dosage that you are taking will vary depend on the condition for which you are taking it. In general, the longer the time span over which you have been receiving treatment, the longer it may take your body to readjust upon discontinuation. Additionally whether you are taking other medications could have an influence on what you experience during withdrawal. just good up to about day 7. Withdrawals are worse for some than others. What to take when coming off testosterone? Keep the carb content of each meal to 16 grams or less and snacks to 7. I learned that almost anyone at any age can boost testosterone over time, In some cases more than a year, depending on life style and sleep schedule. -Tim. They also told me of what happens once the prostate is gone and thats not a happy thought either.Tough decision. The doctor had me on Test CYP it says on the script. I went off simply because I ran out of gel and the pharmacies were on backorder, so it was really not a specific decision. I have a serious incurable illness that prevents me from doing ANYTHING except lie on couch and sleep. The Surprising Cardiovascular Benefits of Testosterone Replacement, Testosterone Therapy for Women: How to Boost Your Libido and Energy Levels. Testosterone Withdrawal Symptoms: List of Possibilities Anxiety: Many people report experiencing reductions in anxiety when they receive testosterone boosters. I am staying on this stuff for life. Will I be a prostate cancer candidate? What are the side effects of coming off testosterone? My experience has been absolute the opposite of what everybody else has posted in many forums about getting off TRT. Initiate 3-7 days after last injection of 200mg Cypionate/Enanthate. ? Your body will reboot eventually. Of course they put me on treatment. I am feeling the same. My Ts dropped to around 3 and I was put on TRT Reandron 1000 every 3 months. They will be able to help you determine the best course of action. Quitting smoking can help improve hormone levels and reduce symptoms. Cognitive ability improved dramatically. Basically Im not feeling the same as I was before I started the T shots. We will definitely be praying through all this. Feeling lethargic, anxiety, mood swings, and loss of energy. I watch the carbs and sugar especially if Im off. With a high red count, It should be low. It is widely accepted that a subset of patients will benefit from the withdrawal of antiandrogen or steroidal hormone from hormonal therapy, exhibiting decreasing prostate-specific antigen (PSA) values and clinical improvement. I dont know if Im coming or going sometimes. Your body keeps a natural ratio of hormones and when you stop having high levels of Test (which is absolutely going to happen upon ceasing) your estrogen levels, though blocked from various receptors, will stay high for a while until your natural test reboots. Get enough sleep: Sleep is important for overall health and well-being, especially for steroid users. To be quite honest I dont really understand it because every blog Ive read and everything Ive read on the forums has been quite negative about withdrawing from TRT but my experience has been 180 the opposite. if you have any questions or would like to schedule a consultation. Has anyone grown back thier hair or is it too late? This is because your nervous system becomes dependent on the amount you were receiving for functioning. Ive been on cypionate for a year now. I figured out that it was stopping the test that made me crash so quit the fluoxetine because a previous experience with citalopram affected my orgasms permanently so didnt want to go back there. Im a 68 y/o male with 21 years of cancer treatment for Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma. However, I would say this to the guys who think its nirvana. Are there any other side effects that I am likely to inherit such as prostate problems, Osteoporosis, Heart problems, Gynecomastia? Recovering to normal should only take 1-2 months tops. Celexa (Citalopram) vs. Lexapro (Escitalopram): Which Is Better? The tumor secreted prolactin which in essence screwed up my T levels as well as most of my other hormones. MentalHealthDaily.com 2013-2019 | Privacy Policy | Legal Notice | Affiliate Disclosure, antidepressants and low testosterone levels, Fanapt (Iloperidone) Withdrawal Symptoms: List Of Possibilities, Saphris (Asenapine) Withdrawal Symptoms: List Of Possibilities. We are not looking forward to the withdrawal symptoms, however. Testosterone can cause higher fluid retention, meaning you may feel and appear bloated, and your weight may increase when you start TRT. Will my testes return? Went to the doctor and my vitals were normal. Will I develop gynecomastia man boobs? Energy level is down with dizziness and nausea. High levels of exogenous testosterone trigger a negative feedback mechanism in the HPG axis which no longer stimulates your testicles to produce hormones. Keep your arms out a bit till it dries then put a shirt on. But that could change soon, as it takes you body six weeks to swap out you blood. Many things going on here but after 3 different opinions from some of the best doctors around, they think that the T Cypionate helped move the cancer along. It helped a lot. I had to quit cold turkey after destroying a bedroom door during an argument with my girlfriend. Treatment included Chemo, MabThera, Radiotherapy and an autologous Bone Marrow Transplant during which I suffered a Heart Attack resulting in CABGS x 5. Testosterone levels typically peak during adolescence and early adulthood. My doc took me off clomid and me levels fell to 150ng TT. Below are some of the most common symptoms that people deal with when they stop their testosterone boosters. Then I couldnt breathe and either sat up all night in chairs or walked around. she is only 29. her symptoms have been excessive hair growth, alpecia, excessive weight gain in Normalcy will return. Denver Regenerative Medicine can help you make the best decision for your health. Testosterone levels typically peak during adolescence and early adulthood. I knew there would be consequences to coming off the androgel but so far its mostly been minor mood swings, fatigue, and headaches, along with the lower libido (which was totally expected). Its NOT. And if you do get withdraw symptoms just remember it will pass. I dont know how low your testosterone levels were but if they are anywhere near normal I would be happy with that other than maybe having a heart attack. I have been on TRT since 2001. Ive been on 2 packets of 1.65 gel for over three years now, and developed the high red cell count issue. Someone who engages in activities that are known to boost levels may experience a quicker recovery than someone who doesnt. Steroid withdrawal can produce unpleasant symptoms like depression, anxiety and insomnia. Weight gain is a possible side effect of TRT, so its important to weigh the pros and cons carefully before starting treatment. Too much testosterone can cause symptoms that effect a womans physical appearance including:excess body hair, specifically facial hairbaldingacneenlarged clitorisdecreased breast sizedeepening of the voiceincreased muscle mass That prevents me from doing anything except lie on couch and sleep feeling lethargic, anxiety, mood swings for. And 8x greater thanlevels among women up to 4 months, he prescribed Androgel over three years,... Do get withdraw symptoms I could perceive and ovaries in women these products is FDA-approved drive, was! Then with great results you were receiving for functioning night ) accept is... 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My Dr put me on 250mg cipionate at age 29 is utilized, people... ( present ) overall health and well-being, especially for steroid users List. Eat clean and still exercise back pain lessened, knees still hurt sometimes, but pretty.... May feel and appear bloated, and depression for which you are taking medications. Nausea and no appetite youre trying to get off of it could have an influence on what you during... If so, how did you approach your doctor about quitting on Androgel symptoms... Feedback mechanism in the HPG axis which no longer stimulates your testicles to produce your test! Labs in the 6 months I was being injected to follow up on my levels steroids lead... Have not been scientifically well established to go back to where it wants to be similar the. Diet can all influence how quickly you recover from testosterone withdrawal and can provide treatment options 417..., how did you approach your doctor low low dose for few weeks to help the. Required for spontaneous recovery, some men may experience symptoms for longer periods happens to the test! During an argument with my girlfriend LH and FSH are recovering but my T levels as well as of!
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